Discovering the German civil society as a Ukrainian refugee-interview with Kristina, a project participant

Kristina was one of the participants in the project “Civil society and democratic experiences for Ukrainian women”, which ran from December last year to May this year. She has a bachelor’s in International relations, media diplomacy and international negotiations from a university in Warsaw and has previously worked in Ukraine, including in Eastern Ukraine, where the conflict between Ukraine and Russia that has now turned into a war first started. She was at the Cologne carnival when the full-scale invasion happened in 2022. She has been living in Berlin for the past two years, and she is about to embark on a master’s degree in International Affairs.

We sat down with her to learn about how her experience with the project was, her view of democracy, and how she sees herself as a politically active, young Ukrainian woman currently living in Germany.

How did you find out about the project, and why did you decide to join?

Vitsche (association of young Ukrainians in Germany) reposted it on social media. After reading the description, I was sure I wanted to join because it was offering something that I was missing. I feel like walking in a glass dome in Germany. I’m here physically, but I couldn’t understand how society works at a deeper level. I felt like I couldn’t breathe fully because I don’t know all these things.

‘I feel like walking in a glass dome in Germany. I’m here physically, but I couldn’t understand how society works at a deeper level. I felt like I couldn’t breathe fully because I don’t know all of these things’.

You need to understand that Ukrainians are a special case. We grew up with revolutions, and this taught me what my rights are and that I have the right to fight for them. That your life can improve. So, it was important for me to know what my rights are and how things work here.

In my life, I witnessed how Ukraine changed on so many levels: gender rights, LGBTQ rights, animal rights, treatment of children. In Ukraine the difference between our parent’s generation and our generation is huge. When I was young my dad slept three hours a day every day because he was juggling his studies and two jobs. There was a huge amount of insecurity, and there still is, but we are trying to build a sustainable system. The government has many ministers in their 30s, born after the independence, who traveled a lot in their youth, studied abroad, etc. We feel entitled to human rights, to freedom, and at the same time we have the thread of it being taken away, and we are trained to protect it.

“We feel entitled to human rights, to freedom, and at the same time we have the threat of it being taken away, and we are trained to protect it. “

What did you enjoy most about the project?

I loved it. It was very smartly put together. We felt like we were in a safe space, despite being from many different backgrounds. I have advanced political and international relations knowledge and understanding, but others didn’t. The trainer brought our personal histories and personalities in the discussion as a way to understand society. It was almost…therapeutic. I even repeated some of the exercises with my friends and partner, because I wanted to know their perspective.

The political part was also very useful, as it was crucial to understand the European Parliament. Honestly, I can tell you that my German partner knows less about it than I do now!

The European elections recently took place while other, important elections are about to take place all over the world. You are currently not able to vote in any elections. How does that feel?

It feels OK because we are thinking about the others, the ones that can’t vote. It’s not that we’re not voting because we need to keep the government; it’s just that it won’t be a democratic vote as it won’t take account of everyone’s opinion as not everyone would be able to vote. But we have other means of democracy, such as the governmental app ‘DIA’[1] in our phones. There are questionnaires and referendums there.

Thanks to that, I feel like I still have a voice. Also, right now, there are three pillars in Ukrainian society on top of the government: the army, volunteers and journalists. I feel connected to all of them. I understand what is going on. If they stay independent, I feel like we are doing OK. Journalism is under limitations but the journalists themselves are free. They used to represent some oligarchs, but not anymore.

Ukraine is going through a “de-oligarchisation”. The oligarch’s impact is massively decreasing because their business was 1) in the energy industry, which is currently heavily hit, and 2) in metallurgy, which is also heavily hit as it is heavily reliant on electricity. Also because of the logistics, as they must do everything by land, which is very expensive. Small businesses are thriving, and big businesses have lost power.

Ukraine is really a special case. I’m happy to have been born there and to have absorbed this spirit, despite the challenges.

What was surprising to you from what you learned about the German political system?

I remember when we compared the constitutions. It was obvious that German was written in the 1950s and Ukrainian in the 1990s. It was obvious in the language used. The separation between Eastern and Western Germany was obvious, and I found it surprising that Germany has a constitution based on the post World-War-II world period. There are new challenges now. Countries are evolving; Germany is not that Germany anymore. It needs to evolve. When you live here, and you encounter all the ‘Amts’[2]- all the institutions are so inflexible, even the private ones! Lack of adaptability is evident in every single place. Even restaurants accept cash only! In Ukraine, even grandmas in markets accept card payments.

What ideas did you get from the project?

The one that I’m carrying to this day is the sailing boat…That democracy is a sailing boat, and it doesn’t go in one direction; it goes left and right, and you need to steer it. Sometimes you think it goes the wrong way, but you must put effort into controlling the sail because there are winds. Sometimes it feels like there’s a right and wrong side, but that’s not democracy. You just arrogantly decide to ignore certain people that believe in something. You need to understand their reasoning, steer them back and make them see there is a better way to achieve their goals. You need to understand people’s values and the motives behind things they believe in to get on same page.

“That democracy is a sailing boat and it doesn’t go in one direction; it goes left and right and you need to steer it. Sometimes you think it goes the wrong way, but you have to put effort in controlling the sail because there are winds.”

Where do you see yourself in a few years time if everything goes the way you want it to?

It’s a difficult question. I want to go back, and I want to become a bridge between Germany and Ukraine. I feel like Germans have a lot to learn from Ukraine (and they are opening their eyes to that), and vice versa. We really are opposites. Because of our Soviet past, we don’t trust the institutions to this day. We are very ground-up, with small businesses and organisations. We make our own reality.

“I want to go back, and become a bridge between Germany and Ukraine. I feel like Germans have a lot to learn from Ukraine (and they are opening their eyes to that), and vice versa.”

Here, people are so reliant on authorities that they forget to act themselves. To change a big organisation is almost impossible. Digitalisation will be very difficult in Germany. This ‘inflexibility’, of course, comes with many benefits, such as the social security system, free and high-quality education, and a stable economy. The downside to Ukrainian flexibility is that we never plan. We don’t know what’s going to happen so we have to be quick on our feet, but that’s not useful if you want to build a sustainable future.

It would be best if we combined our approaches.

What did you value the most?

I loved the opportunity to connect with fellow Ukrainians and to open up. You don’t speak to strangers about topics like these. This is so unique.

One of the trainer’s first questions was, ‘Do you think your family growing up was a democratic system’? I immediately thought, ‘Oh boy, this is serious’. You were supposed to talk to a partner who was a complete stranger. But you’re so interested in the question that it removes the need to protect yourself. It made us all vulnerable and careful with each other’s feelings.

It was the method used that I found great, not just the knowledge I gained.

I wish workshops like these were done for citizens in all countries. That we would collect people (not politicians, but citizens) who don’t see eye to eye and make them go through a workshop like this.

[1] Diia (Ukrainian: Дія, lit. ’Action’; also an acronym for Ukrainian: Держава і Я, romanized: Derzhava i Ya, lit. ’State and Me’) is a mobile app, a web portal and a brand of e-governance in Ukraine. Launched in 2020, the Diia app allows Ukrainian citizens to use digital documents on their smartphones instead of physical ones for identification and sharing purposes.The Diia portal allows access to over 130 government services. Eventually, the government plans to make all kinds of state-person interactions available through Diia.

[2] Amt: a type of administrative division governing a group of municipalities, today only in Germany, but formerly also common in other countries of Northern Europe.